Curse

Cuilan · Jul 23, 2011, 02:42 AM // 02:42

What the heck is a buffed MM?

Kunder · Jul 23, 2011, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

What the heck is a buffed MM?

Bone fiends buffed with OoU and EBSoH. Spits out the highest sustained DPS in the game.

I have to ask, has anyone in this thread actually played guild wars? I think I'm on guild wars guru but who knows whats going on.

Cuilan · Jul 23, 2011, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Builds I've seen use Healing Prayers if /Mo since you're losing health with ranged minions generally around and skills that work with them, not Protection Prayers or something like Shield Guardian.

Chthon · Jul 23, 2011, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

... You DO realize that AP monks are essentially ER prot eles that simply take a slightly higher mediocrum of skill to run than "cast ER on recharge", right?

AP takes monks in the right direction, no doubt, but it still does not compare with ER. Can't do ProtBond, only PS. Can't spam PS wildly, even under the best circumstances. More fragile -- subject to stripping (and you have no cover hexes) and timeout (and you have no damage-dealing ability to accelerate the kill). No spot heal that compares with Infuse.

The things that AP monks *do* have going for them are frequent SoL and self-chaining Aegis. This tends to go up that alley, except (1) it's probably competing with Aegis for a slot in most builds, and probably going to lose, and (2) it's got a horrendous, horrendous recharge that's going to make it a dead slot if AP misses. While you can build offensive casters to just endure the downtime if AP misses, people die if your monk build stops working for more than a couple seconds.

I find it really hard to imagine ever using this skill for anything ever again. Seems like a nerf to ER and nothing else.

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

... You DO realize that AP monks are essentially ER prot eles that simply take a slightly higher mediocrum of skill to run than "cast ER on recharge", right?

I've never seen such a build advised or recommended by anyone else to run, either in game or on these forums, nor would I personally want to want to waste my monks elite slot on AP.

I cannot see anything good about wasting two skill slots on AP + Shield Guardian on a monk when there are so many better ways to be playing the class.

So instead of the old Shield Guardian being a staple and very useful spell on the ER prot build, it may now get used on a necro hero by a few people. And even in that case, Aegis is still better.

If your party is actually taking so much AoE damage in PVE that shield guardian would require casting, that damage is most likely coming from casters and the block is rarely going to be triggered if the enemy is casting spells.

If your party is taking physical damage, the Aegis still makes a lot more sense than Shield Guardian does.

Kunder · Jul 23, 2011, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

AP takes monks in the right direction, no doubt, but it still does not compare with ER. Can't do ProtBond, only PS. Can't spam PS wildly, even under the best circumstances. More fragile -- subject to stripping (and you have no cover hexes) and timeout (and you have no damage-dealing ability to accelerate the kill). No spot heal that compares with Infuse.

The things that AP monks *do* have going for them are frequent SoL and self-chaining Aegis. This tends to go up that alley, except (1) it's probably competing with Aegis for a slot in most builds, and probably going to lose, and (2) it's got a horrendous, horrendous recharge that's going to make it a dead slot if AP misses. While you can build offensive casters to just endure the downtime if AP misses, people die if your monk build stops working for more than a couple seconds.

I find it really hard to imagine ever using this skill for anything ever again. Seems like a nerf to ER and nothing else.

AP fails if AP misses is kind of universal for any build, likewise for party dies if heal stops working. Thats what AP (monk especially) requires more skill than facerolling on the keyboard that I could teach a 5 year old to do.

The point is that (non-smite) monks have essentially 0 use anywhere in guild wars thanks to ER. Anything that can be made usable for them and that nerfs ER (though really, its pretty damn minor) at the same time is an improvement. This is a good, balanced skill. The lack of immediate usage in the wake of holyRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOthatsOP builds shouldn't reflect badly on it. The fact that someone can come into this thread and have the gall to pretend that ER getting a slight hit, in contrast to a skill becoming halfway usable to really nice on actual monks, is a bad thing really amazes me.

superraptors · Jul 23, 2011, 03:02 AM // 03:02

might see some daylight in gvg when pushing into lord pits, however still to weak to warrant it for much use.

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

The point is that (non-smite) monks have essentially 0 use anywhere in guild wars thanks to ER.

Or maybe you dont know how to play a monk?

Monks are the best class to use in JQ with a smiter / heal hybrid. RoJ monks deal more damage in HM than any Elementalist nuke build can. Monks can still heal all the way through the game, and are still needed as healers in elite areas such as FoW and DoA.

I had no problem completing WiK on my monk. Prior to BFLA's difficulty being nerfed, I breezed through the mission without a single party wipe with 2 UA monk heroes and 4 human players.

In comparison to that, Elly damage has 0 use anywhere in HM GW thanks to Mesmers, Rits, Necros, and oh ... Monks as well.

Also, ER ellys never put any kind of a dent in the monks desirability as the party healer. Necros already did that ever since factions was released. People play their ellys as ER protters because their damage output is crap.

Reformed · Jul 23, 2011, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

The point is that (non-smite) monks have essentially 0 use anywhere in guild wars thanks to ER.

It's not true though. They get a pass in the higher end SCs because nothing else can maintain Protective Bond the way they can (hello Burning Speed). For normal teams it's a very rare build with PuGs almost universally not recognizing E/Mo equals healer and asking where the monks are. ER didn't get hurt by this and the new Shield Guardian isn't that great.

Kunder · Jul 23, 2011, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Or maybe you dont know how to play a monk?

Monks are the best class to use in JQ with a smiter / heal hybrid. RoJ monks deal more damage in HM than any Elementalist nuke build can. Monks can still heal all the way through the game, and are still needed as healers in elite areas such as FoW and DoA.

PvP/smiting and false

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I had no problem completing WiK on my monk. Prior to BFLA's difficulty being nerfed, I breezed through the mission without a single party wipe with 2 UA monk heroes and 4 human players.

I should go dig out a screenshot of me vanquishing areas with no healing other than Orison, cause Orison is pretty damn good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

In comparison to that, Elly damage has 0 use anywhere in HM GW thanks to Mesmers, Rits, Necros, and oh ... Monks as well.

Yeah, Eles are actually balanced in PvE HM. What a shame. Please Anet, why can't my ele asplode mobs in .5s? :worldslongesteyeroll:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Also, ER ellys never put any kind of a dent in the monks desirability as the party healer. Necros already did that ever since factions was released. People play their ellys as ER protters because their damage output is crap.

Because if pugs are dumb enough to want them, they have to be OK, amirite?

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Since when do people actually determine a classes usability in GW based on whether pugs want them or not?

I've never had a problem getting into FoW SC pug groups on my monk, unless of course they already had one, whereas elementalists are actually never wanted for FoW. E/Mo prot bonder is a specific build for UW only, in normal PVE most people who play elly wont run the bonder bar, but a normal prot bar which used to include shield guardian, and most pugs who see that bar absolutely wouldnt want it.

If you actually rolled your AP / Shield Guardian build, do you think that will make you more desirable to a pug group than if you simply had WoH?

Another reason why Elly and Necro healers became so popular in groups is because monks are always hard to find. Back when I used to pug before the 7 hero update, people were stood around for ages looking for a MONK. I would PM the leader and ask if a resto elly was ok for them (using prism back then), and they would always let me in because they didnt want to wait around any longer.

The same situation happened in my alliance EOTN dungeon runs. They would find themselves full with every class except for a monk, so I would offer to heal with my elly instead.

And thats how I actually got into using my elly as a healer, because monks were never around to fill that role so I had to do it.

Your issue seems entirely to be that you are glad over a minor nerf to the elly prot build, and even though it doesnt help monks any more in anyway, you are trying to find ways to overcompensate and make it sound like the new shield guardian will actually be useful for monks. It really wont be, the only thing it may get used on now is a necro hero.

deluxe · Jul 23, 2011, 03:27 AM // 03:27

PvE players come crying because they made a useless skill useful.

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

PvE players come crying because they made a useless skill useful.

It wasnt useless for me before, it worked very well on my PVE build which I used 95% of the time thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Because if pugs are dumb enough to want them, they have to be OK, amirite?

I really dont understand what your issue is tbh or what you are trying to say.

All groups need healers in GW. It doesnt matter if its a pug, guild group, or a hero group, you need healers to complete the content.

If theres no monk around, then pugs may be willing to take an elly or a necro healer. Even better, people nowadays simply choose to use heroes instead of having to spend ages forming a group.

The requirement for healers in every group, combined with the severe lack of (decent) monks in PVE is what created the desirability for other classes to heal in PVE. In all honesty, most monks I have played with were absolutely terrible, and I could actually heal far better than the majority on monk players in PVE on either a mesmer or an assassin. That doesnt make either of those classes better or more desirable than the monk, its entirely based on how you play them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Yeah, Eles are actually balanced in PvE HM. What a shame. Please Anet, why can't my ele asplode mobs in .5s? :worldslongesteyeroll:

No they absolutely arent, and they never have been. See the post below.

DiogoSilva · Jul 23, 2011, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Yeah, Eles are actually balanced in PvE HM. What a shame. Please Anet, why can't my ele asplode mobs in .5s? :worldslongesteyeroll:

Elementalists are probably the worst profession for HM PvE (except ER Protter). Even if you nerfed every single OP stuff there is, elementalists would still be the worst profession for HM PvE. Warrior, dervishes, monks are balanced for that mode of the game. Mesmers, necros and rits are OP. Eles suck, and that's the best thing they can do with their damaging skills - to suck. They can go support and be bad versions of mesmers, and still do better compared to what they are supposed to do.

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Ok, so heres a great way to imagine how useful elly skills are in PVE:

How many non elementalist classes would rather choose to play a secondary elementalist instead of using skills from their primary profession?

If ellys are so great, balanced, and viable for HM then why not run searing flames and meteor shower on your monk and complete a HM dungeon book like ellys are having to do with monk skills?

Ensign · Jul 23, 2011, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Elementalists are probably the worst profession for HM PvE (except ER Protter).

For what it's worth, I've found that playing my Ele (with heroes) is faster and safer than playing my Warrior (with heroes). AP is pretty damn good.

Protbond builds in PvE have to switch to RoF. Yawn.

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 04:06 AM // 04:06

AP isnt even an elly skill, hence doesnt determine whether ellys are balanced for HM or not.

Also the build that used shield guardian isnt a protbond build. The protbond build uses burning speed, which is absolutely terrible for any other role, so I suppose that Anet ought to 'nerf' that ones current use in PVE as well.

The protbond build is exclusive to UWSC only. It isnt a build that is commonly used elsewhere in PVE.

To clear up any further confusion, this is UWSC Emo prot bond:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiQLa71Q12M

And this is the PVE Emo prot variant with the old Shield Guardian and no bonding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vF0uouZSls

Ensign · Jul 23, 2011, 04:41 AM // 04:41

If you weren't spamming it for Protbond I don't understand what Shield Guardian was doing on your bar. *shrug*

bhavv · Jul 23, 2011, 04:44 AM // 04:44

The AoE heal every second was very nice. The old shield guardian was a RoF with a fixed AoE heal that didnt depend on how much damage was reduced. It was very reliable and effective on builds with the energy to use it.

Usually when I have agro, I spam it on myself and stand near my heroes for mass heals. It was very powerful, like a 1/4 cast, 1s recharge heal party.

You cant even maintain prot bond on several party members with shield guardian. I tried it and it doesnt work. Only burning speed works for prot bond because it has an instant recharge. RoF with its 2s recharge would also never work for maintaining prot bond on several party members.

The UWSC Protbond build has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue behind this skill change, as many people who play these builds have realized the only obvious reason why it would be changed would be due to its use on the PVE Emo prot build, and the new version isnt any better at all for PVE, or for monks anyway.

*lemming* · Jul 23, 2011, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

It doesnt even affect PVP in the slightest because it isnt a skill that was ever used there. No one is still going to use the new version in either PVE or PVP.

uh

this was specifically a pvp update

or you might just be the biggest troll in riverside and i just got baited hard